I was reading (and getting involved in) a very interesting thread on Boards.ie over the weekend. Initially the thread started as a “how much does it cost to build a website”, but it quickly evolved into a very interesting topic on what is required to get the best from a website. Someone happened to mention LingsCars.com – which is a highly successful car leasing web site in the UK.
I was delighted when Ling, the lady who set up LingsCars.com decided to join in on the conversation. Ling is probably best known for her appearance on the original Dragon’s Den TV series. She failed in her bid to get the Dragon’s to invest £50,000 in her Car Leasing business, but has roared to success in the past two years since her appearance on the show.
Her eye impairing (:P) website turns over more than £35 million a year in car leasing deals. It’s a true testament to how a great idea, a terrible looking website, with lots of traffic and constant customer engagement can be really successful on the Internet. Myself and Ling it seems will never agree on how she could improve conversions, but I have to admit that I really enjoyed the conversation with her.
Anyway, I’ve kind of gone of the topic here…
The whole thread made me think a little about the Irish and what makes us tick. Why do we insist on BUYING everything that costs more than a few thousand euro? What is it that makes us think that we must OWN our homes and cars. A lot would suggest that owning our homes relates back to the years of oppression suffered at the hands of the British, but surely that psyche hasn’t passed to owning cars too; or has it?
Car leasing has never caught on in Ireland, even though in many other countries (in particular the US) it is the norm. How many people actually know that their local garage even offer such leasing deals on cars – or do they just think, “if I want it, I have to buy it”.
There are many pro’s and con’s to leasing cars – but in todays world, with the recession still firmly gripped to the Irish economy’s throat, surely this is an option for many people who can no longer get the loan they could have in the past from the banks?
Have you ever considered leasing? And if not, why not?
#1 by Barry Hand at January 11th, 2010
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I was following that thread as well Tom, and the subsequent Q&A. My feeling is that many of those on the Entrepreneurial forum really don’t grasp how business works online, so would automatically dismiss the success of Lings website based on the UI alone.
While the £35m turnover really doesn’t surprise me, especially with Lings details on how the business is run in the office, she does however mention the difficulties had working with vendors & dealerships, something I think would be a much bigger issue working in Ireland.
#2 by Tom Doyle at January 11th, 2010
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I completely agree with you Barry. I found it hard to even make that distinction in my replies to Ling, but I don’t think I ever got the message across.
I doubt it’s at all an easy business to be in. She seems to handle the finance companies aswell as the dealers – so I can imagine there is a lot of bullsh*t that she has to deal with!
Very interesting person though – I take my hat off to her!
#3 by Ling Valentine at January 12th, 2010
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Ok, you asked for it!
Thanks for comments.
However, this is interesting: “A lot would suggest that owning our homes relates back to the years of oppression suffered at the hands of the British”.
Really? I mean, haven’t the Irish got over this? Should I suggest that my Chinese character is due to “years of oppression suffered at the hands of the British”? Or “Japanese”? (far more recent).
I think this is a truly weird suggestion, and would thing that any normal Irish person will not consider the British as oppressors and allow that to dictate their buying habits.
It seems so many Irish have taken advantage of working in the UK, are they traitors to the “years of oppression suffered at the hands of the British”?
Guess I am asking, do the Irish STILL have a chip on their shoulder about this? It seems the British should have a far larger chip relating to the closeness of many Irish (and the Gov) to the Nazis in WW2.
Intrigued.
Ling
#4 by Tom Doyle at January 12th, 2010
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Hi Ling
Thanks for stopping by!
Surprisingly for you, yes a lot of people still believe our “need” to buy property in Ireland stems from our years of oppression.
Have we got over it??? Some ignore it, others believe Northern Ireland is still illegally occupied – but let’s not go there, that’s politics!!
It’s not that we have a chip on our shoulders – it’s just something that some believe we have brought with us through the generations.
Our ancestors lived in fear of losing their homes to the landlords of the plantations. How could they stopped that happening again? Owning their land (in theory!).
Tom
#5 by Gianni Ponzi at January 12th, 2010
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So how do we explain houses purchases in Australia, New Zealand, South Africa etc ? Also on the British influence ? How do we explain the high rate of German property ownership worldwide ?
Having lived here for 8 years..I do think there definitely is a chip on the shoulder. But that can be said for most Nations.
Like everything, the chip has both positive + negative effects so please don’t take my comments as just being negative 😉
#6 by Tom Doyle at January 12th, 2010
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@Gianni – I’m not saying that is my belief, but there are a lot who do believe this.
@Ling – N. Ireland get massive amounts of Irish Tax Payers money too! Irish have been buying property for years, not just in the boom times when property increased so much in value.
#7 by Darren at January 12th, 2010
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I actually think most people in Ireland want to own their own homes because there are a lot of sheep out there who believe everything the media and their government tell them to. I think it has more to do with people’s failings to question their own culture.
I’ll be the first to admit though, I have never even thought about the prospect of leasing a car, perhaps because without researching the idea my initial instinct would be that it is more costly than buying in the longterm.
#8 by Ling Valentine at January 12th, 2010
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Illegally occupied, hahaha! I have never heard that! Sope people say that about Tibet, but the Chinese Gov simply jails them. NI gets MASSIVE subsidy from the UK. Unlikely Ireland could provide that.
I don’t think the buying of property stems from this “oppression”. Lots of EU countries have colourful histories, I think Portugal and Spain were recently weirdo states, the baltic countries were communist controlled, Romania etc have terrible histories.
I would say the buying of property is simply a way to increase personal wealth. I think if a bad government wanted to nick property from people, they would not let a small matter of ownership stand in their way. Look at China -> you own the property (max 60 years) but never the land which is all owned by the state. But still, people buy houses, mainly to gain as the prices rise.
I think that gain will be the same reason in Ireland, not some potato war from the past.
#9 by Eoin at January 12th, 2010
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We did a redesign of lings cars on designerstalk, some of the results were quite suprising!
http://www.designerstalk.com/forums/competitions/45314-march-web-design-competition-lingscars.html
#10 by Ling Valentine at January 12th, 2010
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I think there are always lunatics in each country.
In the UK there are BNP, in Ireland Sinn Fein etc, in Spain the Basques, in China some Uigers etc.
Owning a car is different to owning a house. In general over time, houses always appreciate, they don’t have wheels and they have a lifespan of more than 20 years. Cars however, have a lifespan in segments (perfect, good, ok, banger) and they depreciate. Leasing is just about keeping a car renewed in the “perfect” stage for the lowest cost. This seems hard in .ie because the prices are high… but I am no expert.
Everyone thinks the grass is greener, but in truth every country has benefits and drawbacks. You have a lovely uncrowded largely rural, relaxed green country. I imagine many Spaniards envy your climate for example. Whereas you often wish for less rain. Whatever, can only make the best of what you have – or move… like I did, from .cn to .uk
#11 by Ivan O'Donoghue at January 12th, 2010
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People do lease in Ireland. I know several who are complete converts to the idea. They just hand back their car every three years and pick up a new one, without having to worry about selling the old one. The pricing seems to be comparable to the traditional buy/sell/buy approach.
Regarding the website – a good website is one that works, and Ling’s site clearly works for her. Design rules are made to be broken, and sales should rank higher than aesthetics every time.
#12 by Tom Doyle at January 12th, 2010
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LOL @ Ling – none of us want to move! I love Ireland and have no intentions of moving whatsoever and certainly not over not having good car leasing deals! LOL
#13 by Ling Valentine at January 12th, 2010
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Not suggesting you want to move – especially over car leasing.
But… people from Ireland must be the people who have migrated the most in the World I think. Over many things, but mainly, I guess, employment.
Hence, Ryanair does so well.
#14 by Tom Doyle at January 13th, 2010
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@Ivan Yes of course people lease cars in Ireland, just not very many.
I don’t agree with your assertion in relation to a “good website” – there are so many other factors involved. You can have the worst website in the world and it will make sales – it’s all about how you improve the conversion website that makes it a well performing website.
@Ling Ah cmon Ling – 65 Million passengers in 2009 – they could hardly be all Irish or Irish descendants! They have that many passengers because of their business model.
#15 by Ivan O'Donoghue at January 13th, 2010
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@Tom I make websites, though I’m more involved in development than design, and I dislike seeing bad design. Ling’s site is not to my taste, and there are some odd SEO techniques employed. That being said, it sells.
I would question the assertion that the worst website in the world will make sales. Whatever we may say about some of the design decisions, a lot of work has gone into the site (including back end and CRM), and those turnover figures aren’t just a happy accident.
#16 by Ling Valentine at January 13th, 2010
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Problem with “improving conversion” is that often it leads you down a path to blandness, as every time it is tested the less exciting format will probably win.
But then you end up with the conventional website. I don’t want that.
My website performs more tasks – it polarises customers, filtering out the ones who would not want to deal with me, because at later stages they would be offended by my humour/bluntness/attitude.
That’s why I think O’Leary is clever when he asserts: “What part of no refund don’t you understand? You are not getting a refund so fukc off.”
He is clearly polarising his customers.
I try to do that but more subtly… I had an AK47 rather than a paint-gun on my front page (shooting bullet holes in the cars and exploding them) but was threatened by finance companies, I thought it was fine, but they thought it was offensive. So, I do listen… under duress.
But beware conventional thinking about “improvements”, that is often code for becoming average. Who wants to go through life without offence? How dull it would be!
#17 by Tom Doyle at January 13th, 2010
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@Ivan – With due respect, I can give you many examples of the worst websites making many sales.
The reason Lings site is successful has nothing to do with the backend or CRM. She get’s traffic and plenty of it.
Even the worst piece of marketing material will average a return of 2-3%.
I would actually say those figures are a “happy accident” – Ling has clearly found a way to engage with visitors to her website, as far as I can see – she realises it’s the engagement that helps her win business, but she puts it down to the site.
She hasn’t tried improving things cosmetically and doesn’t appear open to it, so will never know the benefits of having a properly designed website in conjunction with her customer engagement.
As long as Ling continues on this path, she will continue to have an average conversion rate – a good website get’s the best possible conversion rate for the TYPE of traffic it is receiving.
Bottom line is – if I put up a website even a one pager with no effort… With enough traffic I will make a sale. That’s a fact.
#18 by Tom Doyle at January 13th, 2010
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@Ling – I don’t agree at all. You don’t have to go to “boring side” to increase conversions. Conversion is all about concise, clear, call to actions. That doesn’t mean boring, corporate blandness.
Best example I can think of at the minute would be http://www.cullyandsully.com/ – not the same business of course, this is an example of how you can be different, but still engage with people.
Another good example of a brand that does it well too is the Innocent range. Nothing boring about them either. But it connects with people and has made them a success.
#19 by Ling Valentine at January 13th, 2010
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“She hasn’t tried improving things cosmetically and doesn’t appear open to it, so will never know the benefits of having a properly designed website in conjunction with her customer engagement.”
Oh, I am open, but the site back-end database (300+ tables) is a monster. Every change has implications. Not to say disturbing the Google rankings etc. The site regularly causes the server to crash (it happened this morning, we don’t know why, maybe a cron job coincidence or some locked table, I have much verbose logging but we just can’t figure. The site often runs at or near 100% processor, mySQL, etc. It does so much. It is not *just* a website)
I am building a css based framework so I can modify the site much more easily.
There is a limit to what I can do and also continue to run my business. I do not have secondary income stream so am forced to take pragmatic decisions, not simply what I would like to do.
#20 by Ivan O'Donoghue at January 13th, 2010
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@Tom – I understand where you are coming from, and agree with part of what you are saying. I strongly disagree with other parts. Ultimately, I don’t think we’ll agree on certain points, and I need to go make a website, so let’s park it for now and discuss over a pint sometime
#21 by Tom Doyle at January 13th, 2010
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@Ivan – sounds like a plan!
@Ling – Absolutely no excuse, sounds like a cop out to me! 😛
#22 by Bobby Jones at January 13th, 2010
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Absolutely no excuse @Ling – needs sorting out!
#23 by Ling Valentine at January 13th, 2010
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Hahahah, right, I will book time between 1am and 5am for 3 months, to sort this.
Remember we do stuff ourselves, live, giving remarkable results. Not using some expensive web company who will produce generic results.
#24 by David at March 14th, 2010
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Some practical questions then!
I am buying a new Peugeot 3008 SV, and the cost here with scrappage deal is approx 27,500 Euro, which might improve a bit after a few phone calls?
So, I am thinking about leasing this car for tax reasons, as I am self employed, and I do not care where I lease it from as long as I get the best deal, hell, I would even lease it from China if it was not so full of scammers, not directed at Ling of course
Question for anyone who might know.
Can I, living in Ireland, lease from UK and claim lease as tax expense, as is allowed with Irish lease. Remember, all I am interested in is the best deal and I do not care who gets my business once the best deal is available!
Thx,
David
#25 by Ling Valentine at March 15th, 2010
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David,
No.
Basically it is because it is a different country. Finance companies in the UK won’t lease to Eire. It is nothing personal, just that the European Union does not seem to extend to finance companies. Same applies if you are in France, Spain etc.
To be fair, the nightmare of car recovery if you defaulted or it went legal would be massive. There are registration and tax issues in Ireland and there would be a conflict of court jurisdictions etc.
I do quite some cars to the Northern Province of English Running Dogs, but even these are fraught with difficulty and UK car reg plates can cause some issues in certain areas of NI.
I think high car prices are a drawback of Eire, it being a small and tightly controlled and heavily taxed market. However, you do have benefits I believe in the quality of life, beer and beautiful climate (and free fall out from Sellafield).
Ling
#26 by David at March 15th, 2010
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Thx Ling,
I may have a good deal done with a local Garage + Bank, will have confirmation tomorrow.
Leasing is much more tax efficient, even when allowing for the interest charged, but you must of course be able to make the monthly repayments, else you might be called a Yank
Rgds,
David
#27 by Ant bradshaw at April 7th, 2011
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I Have recently been considering leasing however im unsure im currently researching the ins and out because i dont want to be stuck in an expensive contract!
#28 by Car Lease Return at July 1st, 2011
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Leasing a car has it’s benefits like lower payments and a new car each year! Although leasing may not work for everyone, it’s definitely something to look into when looking for a new vehicle. There is the option to buy the car if you end up falling deeply in love with it
#29 by Volvo-Lease at October 27th, 2011
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I think the way the current financial situation is at the moment car leasing is becoming more and more popular as people just don’t have the funds for going and buying a car outright, and with the depreciation of the value of cars not good, then it is not seen as a good investment anyway.